Hardball with Chris Matthews
(transcript 2/16/10)
MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.
Today, representatives of the Tea Party movement are meeting with the chairman of the Republican National Committee, our friend Michael Steele. Can the party establishment and the Tea Party collaborate or cooperate? Do they want to do it?
Richard Mack is sheriff of Graham County. He was, in fact, in Arizona. He speaks at Tea Party rallies. He‘s a very popular fellow out there in the movement. And he certainly supports it.
Sheriff, thank you for joining us. I—I really want to learn some things tonight. We only have about 10 minutes. You can teach me.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Is the Tea Party movement ready to join hands with the Republican Party and beat the Obama party this November? Is it possible?
RICHARD MACK, TEA PARTY ACTIVIST: Well, that‘s really not what the Tea Party is about.
I speak at Tea Party organizations all across the country. Just got back from Texas. We had a great crowd there. I‘m speaking in San Ramon, California, tonight.
This really isn‘t about going back to the Republicans being in control. This is about whether or not our politicians in Washington, D.C., will follow the Constitution. And can we get back to a—once again, a free society based on the principles of freedom that our country was originally founded upon?
This isn‘t about Sarah Palin. This isn‘t about Richard Mack. This is about whether or not we can have the Constitution restored as the supreme law of the land.
My—my take on all of this is that there‘s only one answer left.
MATTHEWS: OK. I have to…
(CROSSTALK)
MACK: There‘s only one answer left, and that‘s at the local level.
MATTHEWS: OK. Let me ask you, when was the last time you thought the United States government was led by elected officials you thought were honorable to the Constitution? Last time?
MACK: I think Ronald Reagan came close. But you‘re talking about a president.
MATTHEWS: Close, but did he honor the Constitution? Did he honor the Constitution, as head of the executive?
MACK: In some ways, he did, but, still, again, not always. And, so, we have tried the Republican thing.
MATTHEWS: When did he violate the Constitution?
MACK: Well, look—but look at all—well, you could say that about every president, quite honestly.
MATTHEWS: I‘m just asking you.
(CROSSTALK)
MACK: Do we have—but my answer is…
MATTHEWS: Who do you trust?
MACK: I trust the local sheriff. I trust the local county commissioners. And I trust the governors and state legislatures to stand against the incursions of the federal government.
I won a case at the United States Supreme Court on the side of the 10th Amendment.
MATTHEWS: Right.
MACK: The 10th Amendment is the only answer, I believe, that we have left.
We keep going back. The pendulum keeps swinging nationally in Washington, D.C., from one party to the next, because nobody has the answer. They have not provided peace, safety and security.
The Republicans have not followed the Constitution. Both parties have us at national debt and…
MATTHEWS: I agree with you.
MACK: … and completely destroy our economy.
MACK: Both parties have us involved in the war in Iraq and other wars that we shouldn‘t be involved in. There‘s no end in sight in this ridiculous war.
Both parties have caused our borders to be infiltration places for terrorists. We pretend that we‘re having a war on terrorism, yet we allow terrorists to come through our borders. It‘s easy—it‘s easier for a terrorist to enter our country through Mexico than it is for you and me to get on an airplane at our airports.
It‘s ridiculous.
MATTHEWS: OK.
MACK: And both parties have done this. And I don‘t see the Tea Parties jumping all over Steele or the Republican Party.
MATTHEWS: What happens—what happens when a person, man or woman, Republican, Democrat or independent, gets elected to the U.S. Senate? When do—what happens to them? Why are they all the bad guys? What happens to them, as you see it?
MACK: Well, so far, it…
MATTHEWS: What happened? When do they become the evil federal government? When does that happen, right after their election or when they get sworn in?
(CROSSTALK)
MACK: When they stay too long. When they stay too long.
(CROSSTALK)
MACK: Well, I‘m telling you, they stay too long. There‘s been a lot of good people there.
You look back at even John McCain. When he was first there, he was pretty decent. But he has stayed there too long.
MATTHEWS: OK.
MACK: And these politicians become Washington, D.C.-ized.
MATTHEWS: OK.
MACK: And we need to get these people out of there. And, right now, I would say the only answer in Washington, D.C., is, get all of the bums out.
MATTHEWS: OK.
MACK: They‘re are hypocrites and they are dishonest.
MATTHEWS: I think that‘s a popular sentiment. But I want to know about you, sir, and your ideology. Do you believe the following?
MACK: OK.
MATTHEWS: I want to ask you what your—you‘re backing this woman Debra Medina in Texas for governor. Fine.
MACK: Absolutely.
MATTHEWS: She‘s something of a—she‘s something of a truther. Are you? Are you a truther?
MACK: No, no, no. No, no, no.
Glenn Beck tried to make her a 9/11 truther. I know Debra Medina. We have discussed 9/11 truth.
MATTHEWS: She just gave the speech the other day. She just gave the speech. I‘m sorry, sir. We have the tape. We will play it again tonight. She gave a speech the other day saying that she wants to know what happened on 9/11, whether the government was involved. She thinks that‘s a fair question.
Do you?
MACK: I think…
MATTHEWS: Do you think the federal government could have blown up those buildings?
MACK: I think, just like everybody else in this country, that I—I want all the questions answered surrounding that and anything else going on.
MATTHEWS: Do you think there‘s a question about whether the federal government blew up those buildings? Is that an open question to you?
MACK: I think that the—that investigation that was conducted was not done with independent investigators that I know and trust.
MATTHEWS: You‘re talking like a politician, Sheriff.
MACK: That‘s all I‘m saying.
MATTHEWS: You are giving me a…
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: You‘re talking like a politician.
MACK: No, no, no.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: You know what politicians do? They dodge an answer. I‘m asking you a yes-or-no question. Is there an open question whether the federal government had something to do with 9/11? Is that an open question to you?
MACK: I‘m just saying—I‘m just saying we don‘t know the truth.
And I want to know the truth. That‘s all.
MATTHEWS: Well, you‘re talking like a politician.
MACK: I think that‘s an easy answer.
MATTHEWS: So, the truth is not—no, no, no. You‘re suggesting that there‘s something to…
MACK: But I didn‘t get on this show to talk about 9/11.
MATTHEWS: OK.
MACK: Nine-eleven is not anything—I tell…
MATTHEWS: All you have to do is say…
MACK: Let me tell you, Chris, let me tell you honestly, OK, I begin…
MATTHEWS: Yes.
MACK: … every one of my speeches saying, this is not—the Tea Party is not about or this movement for freedom…
MATTHEWS: OK.
MACK: … is not about 9/11. It‘s not about chemtrails. It‘s not about the assassination of JFK.
This is about whether or not we‘re going to follow our Constitution.
This is—you know, Glenn Beck was really out of line.
MATTHEWS: OK.
MACK: And I think he owes Debra Medina an apology.
Here is a lady that‘s at 4 percent, goes to 25 percent in a matter of two weeks. And he wants to know what she feels about 9/11. That is not going to solve our problem. That is not what the tea parties are after.
MATTHEWS: OK.
MACK: They want to know if politicians who promise to uphold and defend the Constitution will actually follow that and keep their word.
MATTHEWS: OK. OK.
Let‘s get to your beliefs.
Second Amendment.
MACK: OK.
MATTHEWS: Should the government have any gun control?
MACK: No, absolutely not.
MATTHEWS: Any? None?
MACK: No, except for—except…
MATTHEWS: So, you can have any firearm, automatic weapon, whatever you want?
(CROSSTALK)
MACK: Except for felons.
Yes, and I don‘t need a permit, and I don‘t need to ask government‘s permission to be able to exercise a right guaranteed in the Constitution that those politicians already promised to uphold and defend.
MATTHEWS: OK.
MACK: That‘s right.
MATTHEWS: Do you think—if you drove a tank—if you drove a tank down the street or carried a bazooka, would the federal government have a right to take it out of your hands?
MACK: That‘s a—you can‘t keep and bear that. You can‘t keep and bear that. These are weapons that you can keep and bear.
MATTHEWS: OK.
OK, automatic—automatic weapons, can you have an automatic weapon without the government getting in your way? Should you be allowed to have an automatic weapon?
MACK: It‘s none of their business. It‘s none of their business what kind of gun I own.
MATTHEWS: OK. So, back in the 1930s, when they outlawed tommy guns, they were wrong?
MACK: Yes. Well, what—what did that hurt?
MATTHEWS: OK.
MACK: Did it—did it reduce crime?
(CROSSTALK)
MACK: Did it reduce crime?
MATTHEWS: OK.
MACK: No. All it did was embolden people that had them, like anybody that was the gangs in Chicago. It hasn‘t reduced crime.
Gun control has never reduced crime. Let‘s not—let‘s not pretend here.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
MACK: It has never happened in world history, ever.
MATTHEWS: OK.
Let me ask you about your beliefs about—about the federal government.
MACK: OK.
MATTHEWS: Do you think the federal government is bad in itself, or just simply the people that happen to be running it? Do you think there‘s something—something that you don‘t like about Washington?
MACK: Yes.
MATTHEWS: And tell me what that is.
MACK: No.
MATTHEWS: The institutions of the government.
MACK: I don‘t like anything—I don‘t like anything in Washington, D.C., when it‘s destroying freedom and land, controlling farmers, controlling ranchers, controlling the air we breathe…
MATTHEWS: Yes. Well, who is calling the shots?
MACK: … controlling everything and every facet of our life.
They do not have the authority to do that.
MATTHEWS: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
MACK: It is not constitutionally granted.
MATTHEWS: Who is they? Because, you know, when I think of Washington, I think of the Congress.
MACK: The bureaucracies, Congress.
MATTHEWS: OK. So, who is the boss?
MACK: Congress—Congress right now has the lowest rating in the history of our nation.
MATTHEWS: I agree with you. Boy, they‘re blowing it. I‘m completely…
MACK: They are.
MATTHEWS: But are they particular people, like Nancy Pelosi, or is there somebody behind the scenes that‘s running Washington?
You say bureaucrats. Who are these people that are doing the thing you don‘t like?
MACK: OK.
MATTHEWS: I‘m just trying to figure that out.
MACK: OSHA, EPA. I mean, it goes on and on.
MATTHEWS: Well, they‘re all operating under the instructions of Congress.
MACK: Bureau of Land Management.
MATTHEWS: Yes. But they are—they were all created by Congress.
MACK: Well, yes. And the worst one—let me tell you the worst one.
Who has allowed that random audits by the IRS—we‘re always audited. Everybody in the United States is subject to a random audit, which is completely and entirely unconstitutional.
MATTHEWS: Yes. Right.
MACK: And, yet, they will not audit the Fed.
MATTHEWS: OK.
MACK: The Federal Reserve gets a free ride all the way through, because these politicians in Washington, D.C., will not take control and follow their own laws.
MATTHEWS: OK. What did OSHA—Occupational Safety and Health Administration…
MACK: Yes. We‘re tired of it.
MATTHEWS: … what has they done that you consider as unconstitutional?
MACK: The who?
MATTHEWS: The OSHA. You just said OSHA is one of the bad guys.
That‘s one of the federal bureaucrats you blame for everything.
MACK: Oh, OSHA. All the time—oh, man.
MATTHEWS: What did they do?
MACK: They control—they control business. They cost jobs. They cost all sorts of monetary—they cause all sorts of monetary problems with businesses that have to always comply with these idiotic rules from OSHA.
OSHA doesn‘t—the states and the counties can run their own businesses they‘re in. We do not need Washington, D.C., micromanaging the country or businesses across this country. It is not constitutionally theirs. They have stolen these powers.
And the tea parties are saying, we‘re taking back our freedom and we‘re taking back our country.
MATTHEWS: OK.
MACK: That‘s what it‘s about.
MATTHEWS: It wouldn‘t concern you—it wouldn‘t concern you that, if some municipality or county said, look, we‘re going to have a little dangerous—we don‘t mind it being a little dangerous here, we want to bring in industry, so we‘re going to compete with other counties, and we‘re going to have less safety regulations? That wouldn‘t bother you?
And that‘s obviously why we have federal laws on safety regulations, so that the workers, the men and women who go to factories in the morning for eight hours a day, don‘t have to go where some company has had lower safety standards, so it‘s competed to go into some county that is willing to not have any safety standards.
If you leave it up to every county…
MACK: See…
MATTHEWS: … won‘t—won‘t big business go wherever there‘s no rules?
MACK: No, come on, Chris.
MATTHEWS: I‘m just asking.
MACK: You‘re—you‘re following the problem.
When I beat the case—when I—when I beat the federal government, I beat the Clinton administration at the United States Supreme Court in 1997.
MATTHEWS: Right. I know.
MACK: And this is the thing they pointed out. Oh, as long as you can weigh the burdens or benefits, as long as you can weigh the benefits, then we will say they‘re constitutional and they should be there.
MATTHEWS: OK.
MACK: No, I‘m saying put the Constitution first. If it‘s not constitutionally allowed…
MATTHEWS: OK.
MACK: … they don‘t get to do it, whether you can have benefits to it or not.
MATTHEWS: Everybody likes that. But everybody believes in the Constitution.
Let me ask you this. You‘re not a birther. You‘re not a truther.
MACK: Oh, baloney. They don‘t either.
MATTHEWS: Who doesn‘t believe in the Constitution?
MACK: Oh, I would say every politician in Washington, D.C., except for Ron Paul.
MATTHEWS: They don‘t believe in the Constitution?
MACK: Well, they don‘t follow it. If they believe in it, maybe they would put it into practice.
But Congress shall make no law. Have they done that? Yes, all the time. But they don‘t get it. They have these strict rules to go by in the Bill of Rights. Do they get the Bill of Rights? No. They have replaced it with their observe political selfish agendas.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
MACK: And that‘s what the Tea Party groups are really tired of.
MATTHEWS: So, you think the Supreme Court and the Democrats and the Republicans have sold out; they don‘t believe in the government of the United States founded by the founding fathers?
MACK: They have sold out. Exactly. Exactly.
MATTHEWS: And—and what is their motive?
MACK: That‘s why the tea parties are taking off the way they are.
MATTHEWS: Right.
Well, I agree they‘re taking off, because people don‘t like unemployment. They don‘t like high taxes.
MACK: Right.
MATTHEWS: They don‘t like—they don‘t like the fact that government isn‘t paying its way.
MACK: Right.
MATTHEWS: I would argue that‘s because the citizenry aren‘t demanding honest politicians, is the big problem, who…
MACK: Well, that is a problem.
MATTHEWS: … honestly will pay for programs that they—because people promise free things to people all the time, and don‘t—don‘t want to pay for them.
I keep asking Republicans, Sheriff, on this show…
(LAUGHTER)
MACK: Yes.
MATTHEWS: … list the federal programs you want to get rid of, and stop giving me loose talk about the Constitution. List all the agencies you want to get rid of, if you want to balance the budget. Don‘t keep telling me how you are going to cut taxes. Get rid of programs.
Republicans won‘t do that anymore. They stopped doing it back in the ‘70s. They won‘t get rid of anything.
MACK: I agree. I agree. The Republicans haven‘t been Republicans.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Why did George Bush sign every spending bill? Every single spending bill, he signed, yes. Because you know what?
MACK: Well, that‘s why they call—well, you really—well, look at
look at what Obama‘s done since he‘s been in there. Really, what has he done? All he‘s done is increased spending, and he‘s increased the national debt.
There‘s only one time I ever agreed with anything Barack Obama did since he took over the White House. And that is that he—he—that Professor Gates should not have been arrested. And he shouldn‘t have been.
MATTHEWS: OK. But he was…
MACK: But, other than that, he has been just spending us into oblivion.
MATTHEWS: By the way, give him some fairness. He inherited a—he inherited a $1.5 trillion deficit from George W. Bush, Mr. Republican.
Let me ask you…
MACK: Yes. And Bush was wrong, too. I told you, the Republicans are part of the problem there.
MATTHEWS: OK, good.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Let me ask you one last question.
MACK: Yes.
MATTHEWS: Why did Sarah Palin get a big applause the other day when she spoke for Rick Perry, and she came out for—she mentioned the word secession.
MACK: Yes.
MATTHEWS: Obviously, we know what secession was. It‘s the whole issue about the Civil War.
MACK: Well, you would have to ask—you would have to ask Sarah Palin that.
MATTHEWS: Why did they give—why did she get a big—why did she get a big applause, though? Because you‘re with the—you‘re with the people that applaud that kind of thing. Why does Rick Perry get a big applause when he says secession?
MACK: No, no, no. We‘re not—we‘re not after secession. We‘re not after secession, although the states have the right to do that, because the states form the federal government, not the other way around.
MATTHEWS: The states have the right to secede?
MACK: The federal government—the federal government is not our boss. Let‘s just make that very clear.
In my case, Mack vs. U.S…
MATTHEWS: OK. Now you have finally hit the—you‘ve hit the—the tire has hit the road, sir.
(CROSSTALK)
MACK: Well, the United States Supreme Court ruled that states…
MATTHEWS: The states in the Civil War—in other words, Lincoln was wrong.
MACK: … are not—the states are not subject to federal direction.
MATTHEWS: OK.
MACK: And that‘s what a part of all this is.
MATTHEWS: No. No.
MACK: If you want to—yes, I mean, I would love to meet Sarah Palin and—and straighten her out on that.
MATTHEWS: Secession.
No, I just want to get one thing. You just said it‘s OK for the states to secede from the union.
MACK: Well, they have the power, if they want. They—they‘re the ones that started this union. That‘s what I‘m saying.
MATTHEWS: OK. OK. Well, that was an issue resolved in 1861.
MACK: Rick Perry has talked about that.
MATTHEWS: All right. OK.
MACK: But I‘m not for—I have not preached that. And you‘ve never heard me preach that, ever.
MATTHEWS: Well, you just said you had the right to—I don‘t think they do.
But, anyway, thank you, Mr. Mack.
MACK: They do have the right.
MATTHEWS: You‘re an honest man.
You said it four times. We know it. You‘re on the record.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: You now believe it‘s OK to secede from the union.
Anyway, thank you.
(LAUGHTER)
MATTHEWS: Up next: Can President Obama save the Senate for the Democrats? Stick around for “The Politics Fix” next.”
This is HARDBALL, only on MSNBC.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
